Thanks for the two posts! That is some good stuff.
Derek
· 3 years ago
Funny, this one is sitting uncomfortably with me, too. I felt this way at Catalyst this year, as well, due to the changes in my life in the past year. But overall, if you believe that the church is supposed to be more of an organism (something created by God) that it is an organization (something created by man), then hearing someone consistently talking about "systems" regarding the church is just plain weird.
At least he said:
"There are some organizational systems that impede ministry. In effect, we are resisting the Holy Spirit."
Organizational systems are designed by man for control. Organic systems are designed by God for life. Organizational systems *always* resist the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit works organically, not organizationally.
bill streger
· 3 years ago
Derek, I think you're drawing a false dicotomy here - it's one we here in the realm of church leaders, but I don't think we find it in scripture.
God certainly works through organic systems - systems that he simply creates on his own to provide life. At the same time, he leads his people often times to create human/organizational systems to make ministry more efficient. (Jesus had the people he was going to feed sit down in groups of varying sizes, Moses was instructed by Jethro to put care systems in place, etc.)
I think it is a both/and case, not an either or.
Derek
· 3 years ago
I'm not saying that organization is bad, but if that's the primary lens through you view ministry then you're not considering the church as a body with Christ as a head - you're considering church as an organization with the pastor as the CEO. I'm becoming more and more aware of how the modern church sees itself as the latter.
richschmidt
· 3 years ago
But listen to yourself, Derek. There are "organic" systems. Andy's not saying you have to use "organizational" systems. Just that you have to pay attention to the systems at play in the part of the body of Christ you happen to be responsible for...
I agree, though, that your organic-vs-organizational thing is a false dichotomy. The church-as-body metaphor is used to help us imagine how the church is organized. Organisms are organized. And they're made up of systems.
Thanks, Tony! Great stuff!
anne jackson
· 3 years ago
thanks for posting all this. as much as lists make my head hurt and the word system makes me want to run in another direction (based on the way i am created)...there are some good things to think about.
like derek, i am a little uncomfortable reading some of this, but i think for a different reason. there are all these seminars now about how to be effective in ministry, on how to be cool and creative and new ways to do this and that - none of which i have a problem with, but i think what is missing in this economy of church seminars is how pastors and church leaders can grow to be more obedient, more accountable, more open and honest in personal struggles and how not only can they lead their church in the newest and most culturally relevant way (important, yes), but how they can continue to be redeemed and restored to the father.
pardon me taking up so much real estate on your blog, i know i have my own, but i have been personally convicted of this after reading the following from oswald chambers. i think these church conferences help with part of what he is talking about - reconnecting the body collectively, but it is evident that so many pastors forget the other part and do get caught up in the organization of the church. i've grown up a PK and worked in two churches, and i beg for someone to prove me wrong in that assumption. i know there are exceptions to the rule...but on a whole...
here is the ozzy:
Reconciliation means the restoring of the relationship between the entire human race and God, putting it back to what God designed it to be. This is what Jesus Christ did in redemption. The church ceases to be spiritual when it becomes self-seeking, only interested in the development of its own organization. The reconciliation of the human race according to His plan means realizing Him not only in our lives individually, but also in our lives collectively. Jesus Christ sent apostles and teachers for this very purpose— that the corporate Person of Christ and His church, made up of many members, might be brought into being and made known. We are not here to develop a spiritual life of our own, or to enjoy a quiet spiritual retreat. We are here to have the full realization of Jesus Christ, for the purpose of building His body.
Am I building up the body of Christ, or am I only concerned about my own personal development? The essential thing is my personal relationship with Jesus Christ— ". . . that I may know Him. . ." ( Philippians 3:10 ). To fulfill God’s perfect design for me requires my total surrender— complete abandonment of myself to Him. Whenever I only want things for myself, the relationship is distorted. And I will suffer great humiliation once I come to acknowledge and understand that I have not really been concerned about realizing Jesus Christ Himself, but only concerned with knowing what He has done for me.
My goal is God Himself, not joy nor peace, Nor even blessing, but Himself, my God.
Am I measuring my life by this standard or by something less?
thanks for not putting a character max on your comments...and forgive me for the length.
Derek
· 3 years ago
Rick, man cannot design, create, and control organic systems. Organic systems are created by God. If you look at the language Andy Stanley used (and often uses at leadership seminars), it's primarily about organizational systems. He even uses the term "your organization" when referring to leadership issues.
The reality is, the modern church is about 90% organization and about 10% organism. It should be the other way around.
tony morgan
· 3 years ago
Couple of things. I think God has gifted certain people (including myself) with the spiritual gifts of administration and leadership. And, like the gift of teaching, I believe the Holy Spirit empowers me to use those gifts to accomplish ministry that exceeds my own limited knowledge and abilities. It's not unusual for that gift to be expressed in the form of systems. Because I've witnessed that in my life and the spiritual journey of those gifted like me, it really ticks me off when other people downplay my gifts.
Secondly, let's just assume for a moment that Andy Stanley is leading outside the will of God. Let's assume for a moment that North Point is creating systems to facilitate ministry that are completely counter to God's design for the church. Let's assume, as an example, that 90% of what North Point is doing is counter to God's plans. I just find it amazing, if that's the case, that God is blessing North Point's ministry so much. It's incredible to witness the transformation of thousands of lives who turned to Jesus Christ. While we sit and argue whether or not the church should be an organism or an organization, God is using a ministry to impact an entire metropolitan region.
I think we need to be careful to critize that which God is blessing.
tony
Derek
· 3 years ago
Overall, church attendance is on the decline in this country. Why is that? While we're celebrating the relative success of some churches, we're losing a country. If we're not willing to analyze our every assumption about the way we approach ministry, then we just might lose it all. You can point to churches that have grown into the thousands or even tens of thousands. We can also look into other countries, where they adopt a more organic approach, and find churches that have grown into the hundreds of thousands and even into the millions.
I'm as impressed as anybody about the impact North Point has had. Still, I think our very foundational ideas about church limit what God is able to do through us. I think organization vs. organism is one of those foundational issues.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
Derek, I really think that you need to stop looking at the trees and start looking at the forest, huh?
All Comments
At least he said:
"There are some organizational systems that impede ministry. In effect, we are resisting the Holy Spirit."
Organizational systems are designed by man for control. Organic systems are designed by God for life. Organizational systems *always* resist the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit works organically, not organizationally.
God certainly works through organic systems - systems that he simply creates on his own to provide life. At the same time, he leads his people often times to create human/organizational systems to make ministry more efficient. (Jesus had the people he was going to feed sit down in groups of varying sizes, Moses was instructed by Jethro to put care systems in place, etc.)
I think it is a both/and case, not an either or.
I agree, though, that your organic-vs-organizational thing is a false dichotomy. The church-as-body metaphor is used to help us imagine how the church is organized. Organisms are organized. And they're made up of systems.
Thanks, Tony! Great stuff!
like derek, i am a little uncomfortable reading some of this, but i think for a different reason. there are all these seminars now about how to be effective in ministry, on how to be cool and creative and new ways to do this and that - none of which i have a problem with, but i think what is missing in this economy of church seminars is how pastors and church leaders can grow to be more obedient, more accountable, more open and honest in personal struggles and how not only can they lead their church in the newest and most culturally relevant way (important, yes), but how they can continue to be redeemed and restored to the father.
pardon me taking up so much real estate on your blog, i know i have my own, but i have been personally convicted of this after reading the following from oswald chambers. i think these church conferences help with part of what he is talking about - reconnecting the body collectively, but it is evident that so many pastors forget the other part and do get caught up in the organization of the church. i've grown up a PK and worked in two churches, and i beg for someone to prove me wrong in that assumption. i know there are exceptions to the rule...but on a whole...
here is the ozzy:
Reconciliation means the restoring of the relationship between the entire human race and God, putting it back to what God designed it to be. This is what Jesus Christ did in redemption. The church ceases to be spiritual when it becomes self-seeking, only interested in the development of its own organization. The reconciliation of the human race according to His plan means realizing Him not only in our lives individually, but also in our lives collectively. Jesus Christ sent apostles and teachers for this very purpose— that the corporate Person of Christ and His church, made up of many members, might be brought into being and made known. We are not here to develop a spiritual life of our own, or to enjoy a quiet spiritual retreat. We are here to have the full realization of Jesus Christ, for the purpose of building His body.
Am I building up the body of Christ, or am I only concerned about my own personal development? The essential thing is my personal relationship with Jesus Christ— ". . . that I may know Him. . ." ( Philippians 3:10 ). To fulfill God’s perfect design for me requires my total surrender— complete abandonment of myself to Him. Whenever I only want things for myself, the relationship is distorted. And I will suffer great humiliation once I come to acknowledge and understand that I have not really been concerned about realizing Jesus Christ Himself, but only concerned with knowing what He has done for me.
My goal is God Himself, not joy nor peace, Nor even blessing, but Himself, my God.
Am I measuring my life by this standard or by something less?
thanks for not putting a character max on your comments...and forgive me for the length.
The reality is, the modern church is about 90% organization and about 10% organism. It should be the other way around.
Secondly, let's just assume for a moment that Andy Stanley is leading outside the will of God. Let's assume for a moment that North Point is creating systems to facilitate ministry that are completely counter to God's design for the church. Let's assume, as an example, that 90% of what North Point is doing is counter to God's plans. I just find it amazing, if that's the case, that God is blessing North Point's ministry so much. It's incredible to witness the transformation of thousands of lives who turned to Jesus Christ. While we sit and argue whether or not the church should be an organism or an organization, God is using a ministry to impact an entire metropolitan region.
I think we need to be careful to critize that which God is blessing.
tony
I'm as impressed as anybody about the impact North Point has had. Still, I think our very foundational ideas about church limit what God is able to do through us. I think organization vs. organism is one of those foundational issues.